Re: [nukkad] Palestine - Israel (Response to Azim)

[Net Geek <>]

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  Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
 -- Elbert Hubbard
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Dear Azim
         I appreciate your efforts to have a healthy debate about Palestine and your
choice of UN as a source as opposed to some nondescript Islamic website. In 2
postings you try your level best to drive the point that all is wrong with Israel
and whatever the Palestinians claim are genuine and beyond doubt. Despite going
through the entire UN text, nowhere can I find any indication that the claims in my
posting were wrong. From what I understood UN is merely  providing a highly
generalised history as background material .  Kindly don't take me wrongly, but it
looks like your knowledge of the Israel and Palestine history is very basic/minimal
and recourse to UN as a source of information is not helping you in any way.
Furthermore I can easily point out at least three glaring omissions/inaccuracies in
the UN version. But before proceeding any further, a few clarifications.
==========
>> UN as a source 

## UN as an organisation was formed in 1945 towards the fag end of World War II
after League of Nations collapsed. The Israeli Palestine issue needs to examine
events that happened at years prior to the formation of UN. So in what way is UN
statements the ultimate Holy grail as far as history is concerned. UN best is a
political organisation with all nations as members and at the best their statements
can be best characterised as politically correct but certainly not the one which
reflects past reality. I do go with the word of UN when it comes to present impasse
and events in the region. But certainly for a history discussion or for past events
it makes a very poor source. 

>> Your statement "i dont  take any site as evidence or correct until its a
government site and or is reputed one"

## What is a reputed site? As for the site I quoted, it is not a Jewish site as you
claim but belongs to University of Kansas which is the de-facto source for
historical archives prescribed to University History students across the globe. In
spite of this I do take your point that websites can never be taken as authentic
sources. But the fact is that except for some cross reference of dates, I have not
any used any material from the web. All the text is in my own words and the source
the two books I have cited. Coming to your criteria of govt sites being taken as
authentic, Taliban had a website extolling the virtues of their emirate and how
their subjects were leading a happy life, but what was the reality? Had USSR
survived a little more then they would also have come out with a website praising
how the working class was enjoying the benefits of their Socialistic society. But
look what the reality is. So please reconsider your blind faith in govt sites. They
only portray facts and policies in line with the nation's/ruling party's agenda. My
suggestion is to consider web only as a secondary source and prefer authentic books
by reputed authors. I would certainly recommend you to read "O Jerusalem" to brush
up your history about Palestine, Israel and Jerusalem.

>>Your statement "anything be the history for i am on the side of peace"

## Peace for whom? Israel or Palestine? UN, the media and various other so called
humanitarian organisations are out to crucify Ariel Sharon as the perpetual villain
of the show. Ariel Sharon is certainly no angel but what about the self styled PLO
chief Arafat? What are his credentials? To the best of my knowledge he is a former
terrorist who is still one of the accused in the Black Sunday murder of Jewish
athletes during Munich Olympics. Another fact is that Sharon despite his shortcoming
is an elected leader, what about chairman Arafat? Who elected him? What credibility
does his claim as being the sole representative of Plaestinians have? In short no
peace process will succeed with Arafat at the helm. Let there be elections in the
West Bank and Gaza strip so that Arabs can select their own representatives. Else
world opinion will be always on Israel's side. 
==========
Now let us discuss about the history surrounding Israel and Palestine and the UN
versions you posted.

>> Your statement "pls dont take this as any personal attack on you or your Finds
but below is one of my attempt to show the acctual fact. My Soruce is U.N website.
Pls let me know if u find it to be false from any other source"

## No need to be apologetic while disputing a statement.

>> Further you continue "i would suggest you to pls Reffer to the U.N Website. It
has got all the details and also the U.N resolutions. I find it funny because U.S.A
is the Head of U.N they have Written everything on thier website and clearly most of
it shows that many times Israel Broke the U.N resolutions still U.S.A is supporting
Israel now thats where the confusion lies"

## So there, you yourself paint UN as a US stooge. Then why are you according so
much credibility to UN stories.? Also the UN resolutions broken by Israel are very
recent ones pertaining to building of Jewish settlements in West Bank and Gaza. It
is in no way related to our topic of discussion i.e what are the truth behind
various myths propagated. Perhaps in the view of UN a world never existed prior to
its formation.

>> You quoted my statements "The first Jewish Aliya took place during 1882 under
Ottoman rule, 15 years prior to the time when the term "Zionism" was first coined.
THe ......"

>> Then you countered it "What i found
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/balfour.html

Foreign Office, 
2 November 1917 

Dear Lord Rothschild, 

I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majestys Government the
following 
declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to
and approved by the Cabinet:"

# This is nothing but the Balfour Declaration of 1917 promising a Jewish homeland in
Palestine. I fail to understand how this declaration voids the previous Aliya by
Jews. Also this charter is being misquoted by Arab quarters as the best example of
betrayal by the Jews and an evidence of British-Jewish axis against the Arabs. But
please read the following lines from your post.

"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the
civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the
rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

So what it meant was the creation of a Jewish homeland but strictly without
prejudicing or displacing the existing non-Jewish population over there. Then where
is the betrayal.  Further to Balfour declaration, a number of events took place
creation of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, growth of Tel Aviv as a modern city,
creation of various Jewish councils (like Hagannah, Yisuv, Histadruf etc),
establishment of a technological centre in Haifa etc to name a few. There was
absolutely no Arab opposition to any of these moves till 1929 when the first
documented instance of riots against Jews took place. That brings us to the reason
why Jews  were forced to take arms and who are the real villains and victims.

>> From the UN text "Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish
immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and
violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II"  

## This is a highly simplistic description of complex and vital events. The first
ever instance of anti-Jewish riots happened in 1929 in Hebron, the mastermind behind
the act being Haj Amin el Husseini a Jordanian Arab. This highly unexpected and
surprise event had a saluting effect on the Jewish populace and led to the formation
of Etzel,the Jewish underground security organisation. Husseini was not alone in
being at the wrong side. The British now opposed to the Jewish leaders created a new
institution, the Mufti of Jerusalem mosque. Haj Amin el Husseini was elevated to
this post. With covert British support Husseini along with Kawukji the self styled
commander of Iraq initiated mammoth pogroms against the Jews in 1933, which went for
the next six years. British paid the ultimate price for this misadventure when their
own proteges  Husseini and Kawukji turned monsters and joined hands with Nazi
Germany. Unlike the previous riots this time Jews fought back tooth for a tooth and
eye for an eye. Husseini and Kawukji was forced to flee and British themselves had
to declare Husseini as a proclaimed offender and human rights abuser. There are many
reasons in vogue as to the reasons for this uprising but most historians are of the
opinion that the main villains was the tyrannical Arab regimes and rulers who felt
insecure at the possibility of the reforms  initiated by the Jews prompting their
own citizens to demand a more democratic and representative rule.  

The rest is history, Israel fighting in world war II alongside British, Holocaust in
Europe, UN mandate and finally the creation of Israel followed by the Arab Israeli
wars. I would love to continue but doing so will make my posting so volimnous. So I
stop here for the time being.
==========
Now coming to the shortcomings of UN version of events.

1. The UN text makes us to believe that Balfour declaration was the turning point
and the start of the Arab Jewish rift. However if there was opposition to the
creation of a Jewish homeland, then why did the Arabs wait for 12 long years to
protest. Why didn't they oppose the move at the outset of Balfour Declaration
itself?

2. Any opposition to Jewish rule should have come from Arabs within the region that
is presently Israel. Then how come the man who initiated the riots (Husseini) happen
 to be  a Jordanian Arab, a clear outsider.  Who were the local Arab leaders
involved in the uprising?

3. Why is there no mention of Hussein or Kawukji anywhere in the UN text?

4. Why is it that the British is portrayed as neutral arbitrators whereas in reality
they are one among the real villains?

5. The UN text is replete with massive Jewish migration to Palestine but is
surprisingly silent about the British blockade of Jewish refugees and the existence
of camps in  Cyprus where the refugees were held against their wish?

I can point you more such glaring holes in the UN story. However I leave it to you
to decide.
==========
Before leaving I want to make one thing clear. Neither is my intention to crucify
the Palestinians nor do I believe that Israel is completely free of all wrong doing
in the current impasse. An unbiased examination of relevant past events is what I'm
interested. You are free to question me on any of observations and I will try my
level best to clarify your objections. However  since a lot of reference is required
to provide accurate answers, do allow me the liberty of taking some extra time for
this purpose or in short I may not be in a position to provide you an immediate
response but will surely respond.

All my findings are based on the books "O Jerusalem" and "Exodus". 

=====
Bye,



Netgeek aka Cherian
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